But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? I was wrong there. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. He says, Steve. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. So just a historical note for everybody watching. And see, heres the thing. Oh, youre on mute. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. 18. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. Yes. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. Thats kind of hard. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. No, I dont think you are following my point. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. And hes not. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. On March 5, 2008 Christie retired from professional football. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Submit to my authority. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Thats just being read into the text. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. But it doesnt demand for that though. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. I dont know how you would feel. He had cancer and heart disease. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . And itll be really quick. Yes. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. Thanks for being a supporter mate. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Steve Christie also has his own website. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. This question is for Steve from super chat megentlevolp. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? H. September 16, 2018 by Randal. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. I already have. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. General Discussion (Forum) Main. It would always demand that. Okay, Trent. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. He became sin for us. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. For example, Denver seminary professor Joseph Dodson says, Scholars for at least three centuries have found value in comparing the deuterocanonical book of Wisdom and Romans (The Powers of Personification: Rhetorical Purpose in the Book of Wisdom and the Letter to the Romans). My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . If I could just. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . . I agree with what that person teaches. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Here we go. Well done. So this question is for Trent. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. . When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. What am I to do with this? Honestly, Id have to think about it. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. Thank you. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Its a way to begin exploration of it. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. So probably honestly that one. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. Sure. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. He offered them in the debate. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] Yeah. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Nice to have you. Born Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Im really enjoying this. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Okay. Okay. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. Well, not necessarily. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. What about after the apostolic age? Do you know him? If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. They would be sons from another marriage. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. So Im well aware of that. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. The question for Joseph-. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. That would be one. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. All right. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Thank you very much, Trent. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Thats fair. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. The same in any intellectual study. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. It doesnt mention sin there. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. . Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. Facebook This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. 16. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. Okay. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. So Im going to put a link in the description below. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament.